Extreme Terrain: Inner Maps & Northern Resilience

In this episode, Paul Gaines, talks of the wild beauty and daunting challenges of Alaska's mental health scene. In candid conversation, Paul recounts his work at the College of Visual Arts (St. Paul. MN) to becoming a Behavioral Health Director in Fairbanks. Alaska’s tough environment requires mental health professionals who can handle extreme seasons and the deep emotional impacts of isolation and trauma.

From the lows of burnout to the highs of witnessing the northern lights, Paul's experiences as a behavioral health director, veteran advocate, and psychotherapist unravel like a map of human endurance. His return to Alaska, driven by an undeterred spirit and a commitment to finish what he started, echoes a larger narrative about the true meaning of 'home' and the persistent power of community. As Paul shares his wisdom and adventures, listeners are left with a vivid impression of life in the 'Land of the Midnight Sun'—a land that tests the bounds of the human heart and spirit.

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Chapters

• 0:06 Alaskan Resilience and Mental Health
• 5:38 Navigating Self-Care Challenges in Alaska
• 18:35 Lifestyle Challenges of Living in Alaska
• 23:16 Population Diversity and Resilience in Fairbanks
• 26:35 Future of Mental Health Care

Transcript

 Pat
Fill To Capacity, where heart grit and irreverent humor collide. A podcast for people too stubborn to quit and too creative not to make a difference.

Pat
Hi, I am Pat Benincasa and welcome to Fill To Capacity. Today, Episode # 73, “Extreme Terrain, Inner Maps and Northern Resilience.” My guest is Paul Gaines. Now I gotta tell you folks, I worked with Paul at the College of Visual Arts (St. Paul,MN) when he was Director of Student Life there, and I was adjunct faculty. He left there in 2008. So we go back a little, a little ways. (Note: the College of Visual Arts, closed in 2013)

A bit of information about Paul. Paul has quite a story to share, a journey where geography maps the internal terrain of an adventurous life. Paul, originally from Rhode Island, is behavioral health director at the Interior Community Health Center in Fairbanks, Alaska, where he manages the behavioral health team, works with doctors for integrated care and provides psychotherapy.  

On top of that, since 2017, he's had his own practice offering therapy to individuals and families. Paul's experience includes serving military veterans at Veterans Affairs in Kodiak, Alaska, where he offered psychotherapy and led behavioral health aids. 

The first time Paul moved to Alaska; he drove across Alaska by himself. He became a volunteer firefighter and EMT, but he left Alaska because of burnout, but later returned. So, Paul, you have quite a story. Welcome. It's so nice to have you here!

Paul
It's, it's so good to see you. And yeah, CVA was, it's still real close to my heart. You know, just a lot of the students that I met there, I'm friends with, we're close to this day. They have children and yeah, we, we did some work there. Its a real special place. It still brings a smile to my face, and I think of the time I had there.

Pat
Well, the College of Visual Arts, affectionately called CVA, we still have ties to a lot of students, and they've grown up, as you say, and they have families and kids. It was an extraordinary, extraordinary place. 

So, Paul, reflecting on your, your extensive career, I'm kind of curious, what motivated you initially to specialize in therapy for military veterans and first responders?

Paul
Well, my first master's degree was in mental health counseling from Bridgewater State College (Massachusetts.) And I always wanted to join the military, but by the time I got my master's, I was too old to go into Officer Candidate School. So I figured if I got my master's degree, I could join through direct ascension with the Navy and work hopefully with the first Marine Division or join Army Medical. But I didn't realize that they only accepted Master of Social Work, and licensed clinicians. So my degree was in the wrong field. And so I went into higher ed instead. And I worked as a nonclinical counselor in student affairs. I was mostly working in like student affairs. And then when I left CVA and went to the University of Connecticut, one of my main tasks as an associate dean there was to work with emerging student constituencies. And the group that most readily responded to these initiatives were the student veterans.

Paul
As I got to know them, and they helped me understand what they needed from me and from the university. And I realized that I could probably be doing a lot more on the inside. So, I revisited going back and then, you know, life happens. And then Alaska was calling, and then I had a choice. Okay, do I go in through Army Medical or do I go to Alaska? And then some of the vets and some of the folks were saying that I could be more influential on the outside, so they wouldn't have to worry about what might have to be reported to command if they were really struggling with something. And when I came to Alaska, Alaska's a land of extremes. And when I landed in Anchorage, I thought I had seen mountains growing up on the East Coast. But, uh, the Chugach Range really struck me as soon as you landed.

Paul
And when you go to Alaska and you land in Anchorage, you understand that. And then when I flew from Anchorage to Kodiak before I landed, I just saw how beautiful Kodiak was, and I was telling myself, okay, well whatever job they offer, I'm probably going to take Yep. Because I was already a finalist in a number of positions before I got there, and I just fell in love with it. Alaska's, it's like being the Dallas Cowboys, you either love them or you hate them. There's no middle ground with them, like the Yankees.

Pat
We are gonna get into your connection to Alaska, but I'd like to start, when we were going back and forth in emails, I'd like to talk about burnout and self-care. You mentioned that your dad had passed, and you wanted to come back to Alaska. You originally were in Alaska, you left, and you wanted to come back. But you mentioned how people didn't want you to return because quote, “when I left Alaska the first time, I was in a bad way. I learned the hard way, the need for self-care, which is very difficult in rural Alaska.” Can you speak about that?

Paul
Absolutely. As a person that works in healthcare, one of the things I learned about in living in rural Alaska is the lack of access and the barriers to self-care and the barriers to treatment. And so, you know, when you work in the field, we recognize the signs of burnout, but a lot of us think that we can think our way through it and intellectualize our way through it, which is the exact thing you're not supposed to do when you're struggling because it is an extreme place. And I realized that I had to just get out because you can do a lot. And joining the volunteer fire service was one of those things for self-care, to get my mind away from working in therapy. And now I'm working with things that a much more linear, someone's bleeding, we stop the bleeding, someone's not breathing, you know, restore their airway.

Paul
It allowed me to use a, a different hemisphere of my brain Yeah. And say theoretical, now I'm just applying immediate application of what we need to do. 

But it was lonely as a therapist in rural Alaska, you can't really date people. It's difficult to go out because you see people everywhere. And a lot of times they wanna say, Hey, I know that you're seeing my brother and I just want you to know you're doing a great job. And we can't even acknowledge that because even though it's, and everyone knows who you're, you still have to honor HIPPA and you just, it's a good day, isn't it? Or Boy, how about those Red Sox! and doesn't have to dismiss it. And then there are the times when it's, it's not very comfortable where maybe you had to help a woman find housing because she's in an abusive relationship, or you have to call OCS to have children removed from the home. And you are still in close contact with these people outside of the, outside of the clinic. And some of them aren't happy with you, so you always have to kind of be under your Ps and Qs. It made going out a lot less fun than it should be. It was difficult to enjoy Alaska knowing that there were all of these other elements that I had to be mindful of.

Pat
You said something interesting. When people are in the midst of burnout, we kind of talk ourselves off the ledge. You know, I've done that where, well, it's not that bad. Oh, just buck up. We do these things. And sometimes the severity of the situation can really get out of hand. And somehow you were able to catch yourself and say, whoa, no, no, I, I've got to leave now. What would you say was people facing these kinds of struggles? What kind of lesson would you share about, you know, when you, when you feel like you're, you're in a burnout, but, but you don't know what to do?

Paul
I'd say don't wait as long as I did. Don't try to swim up upstream. If you've, you know, you've got nothing to swim with, continue to reach out, ask for help. It's never too late to ask for help. Asking for help is a strength, not a weakness. And it's okay to take a step back. It's okay to say, I need to, I need to leave. I need to get myself healthy and, and be back around the things that, and the people that love me, and the people that value me. And so having friends, having family, there's really very few substitutes for that. And I had a, a large group of people that were, that have been with me through thick and thin, and probably, I'm looking at five for 10, probably less, less than 10 people who, to this day, if I don't talk to them for a couple years and I reach out, they're there for me. You know? And it's good. Have people like that. You don't need many, but you need solid folks. And I was lucky to have a little bit of both.

Pat
You know, when you talk about Alaska, it sounds like you have this love, hate, intense relationship with Alaska. You left it, you came back. So I'm curious, Paul, what does home mean to you and how did Alaska become that, despite all its challenges?

Paul
Well, it's, it's not love hate. It's, it's really all love. Okay. There are things that I, I don't like about it. Like, a lot of folks don't like the darkness. I love it because I love to shoot the Aurora and Fairbanks is the best place to shoot it. So I, I feel quite friendly about this. What was the first part of it again? 

Pat
Well, the first part is that you left Alaska, you came back to it. And it makes me wonder, how do you define home? What does home mean to you?

Paul
I like to finish what I start, and I'm not a quitter. And I learned that from my dad, where, you know, he was a big-time athlete. He was also a veteran, and he was a, well, like my mom, they were both public servants and educators. But I learned a lot about life by being an athlete. And my dad said a few things. You know, you, you always run on and off the field, always have your uniform dressed nicely, and don't quit a team just because you're unhappy, because if you quit once it gets easier to quit subsequent endeavors. So I learned never to quit, and I didn't like the way I left Alaska. I left with the score unsettled, and I had to come back for myself. But it was always a plan to return. Of course, mom absolutely wants me to stay in Newport, probably wants me to live with her.

Paul
Love you mom, but not gonna live with you. And people were concerned. But I know what I was capable of, and I had to go back for myself to close the circle and to regain what I've lost here. And through maintaining work as a therapist while having therapy, staying healthy in mind, staying athletically in shape so you can actually go out and run to off stress and doing all the things that I didn't do enough of when I was here the first time. So it's okay to take a setback and learn from it because, you know, my failure is the first time it was a gift. It taught me that I'm not invincible. I'm not Superman and I need help just like everybody else does. But I also knew I would come back smarter and stronger. And that's why I feel much more comfortable here now than what I was my first time around. Yeah.

Pat
Yeah. Why is it, Paul, do you think that people find it so difficult to do self-care? Is it the culture? Is it society? What is it that makes people wanna tough things out?

Paul
This is the only country in the world who citizens are expected to be happy. And if there's, if we're not happy, there must be something wrong with us. And if there's something wrong with us and we have to do something about it, we have to be entertained or medicated or, or do something else other than focus on the things that make us feel sad or feel bad. And I, I think that a lot of times behavioral health is looked at as a weakness where, oh, you're sad, so just get over it. Or here, have a drink, or go on this date, or, you know, do something else. But don't think about what's making you sad or what's traumatizing you, which is a larger issue with most of the people I see. And it takes a lot of hard work to look inside yourself and say, wow, the path that I've been on, or the lessons I've learned as a child, maybe they're not the most productive lessons and the most helpful lessons.

Paul
And so I have to learn doing things that are uncomfortable and unfamiliar, which is scary. I tell my clients, imagine like a highway and it's smooth, it's wide open, it's well paved. You can drive everywhere, anywhere you want, as fast as you want. But it's leading to a place that's not healthy and it's not productive, but it's easy and it's familiar. And we have to take a machete and sort of trailblaze through and step on roots and create this little trail, which is a lot harder, but it leads to a more productive destination. And that's how you create neural pathways. And it's easy to get back onto that track. Because it's familiar and it's comfortable. And so a lot of self-care involves doing things that are uncomfortable and unfamiliar until they become familiar and comfortable.

Pat
Well, that's a beautiful analogy. The highway to cutting a path with a machete through dense forest to try to reach and make a way for yourself. That's beautifully said. 

You know, we're creatures of habit and especially when it comes to time. And so when we have a change, like daylight savings, people are cranky for days, you know, they just, they get thrown off. Now, you, you talked about a little bit earlier, Alaska has these seasonal shifts from endless daylight to prolonged darkness. And you mentioned that you like having the darkness, but how do your clients, I mean, do you find people are affected by the seasons in Alaska? 

Paul
Absolutely. You know, the deficiency is what we address and it's addressed through medications to address through the, the lights that we keep in our office, full spectrum lights. And  it's a real issue for a lot of folks, but here in Fairbanks, it's not 24 hours of darkness. You know, we get 24 hours of daylight, and it's pretty close to that right now, already in, in late April. It's light, it's not sunlight, there's always ambient light. We'll get the shortest day, I think we'll get about five to six hours of sunlight, and it just breaches the horizon and then sets again. So we do get sunlight every day. We just don't get a lot of it.  But this is also where we have to supplement the lack of sunlight with other things. And you can't shut yourself in and isolate.

Paul
You have to get out, you have to do things, and you have to eat healthy, and you have to get rest. It's tougher for me during, during the summer because it's bright all the time. And for me, when it's bright, I wanna be out doing things. And I remember one of the first days I was here when I was in Kodiak, I was out fishing and fishing. I couldn't understand why I was getting so tired. And I, I looked at my watch and it was 12:30, the sun was still out. And I'm like, oh my God, I could go work in a few hours. It's easy to get seduced because it's so beautiful. And I love to fish. And you know, when it gets dark, you go home. But when it's light out, well, you keep fishing. I just couldn't figure out why I was so fatigued. Those are some of the adjustments that you face up here.

Pat
I imagine there is some disorientation, like living in Minnesota, you know, by the time where the sun's traveling, you gauge your day, you know, when it's sunset, early evening, you have those markers. So for Alaskans, it must be a way of internal markers. So you're not fishing all night into the morning 

Paul
Well, it's called looking at your watch. It's just simple, just look at your watch. And I clearly wasn't doing that, doing enough of that. It's not as complicated as it needs to be. You just have to mind your time.

Pat
Okay. You living with the extremes of Alaska's environment and lifestyle must present unique challenges for mental health care. Could you discuss how these conditions have informed your approach or affected your approach to providing mental health and self-care for your clients, especially in rural settings?

Paul
Well, yeah. I think many people  don't understand what it's like to live in Alaska. They read about it, they see it, and they come up for an interview. And usually, we invite people up during the spring and the summer, but they may not like it. They may not enjoy being up here because the issues that we face in Alaska are several times greater and more intense than what I've experienced in the Lower 48 (term meaning the continental US). So I think that the level of trauma is significantly higher. The higher density of people that are struggling with severe mental illness and severe emotional disturbance is much higher. We see a greater percentage of people that are struggling greatly with their behavioral health needs. And then there's  high, high turnover, you know, a lot of folks come up here and within few years they're gone.

Paul
Which complicates things for our clients because they don't wanna have to share their story every six months with a new therapist. Okay. A new provider. And so they will then drop out because they get frustrated, they establish a rapport with a clinician. The clinician leaves and the client's needs are unmet, and they have a, a negative perception of, of behavioral health. 'cause a lot of us don't stick around. So, and it's difficult to recruit people up here because Fairbanks, it's, it's about 38,000 people. It's a big city, but compared to, you know, St. Paul, MN it's tiny. And so there are a lot of challenges here. But if you like what Alaska has to offer, then it's a great place. But most people don't last because it's a difficult place to live.

Pat
When you provide mental health care to clients, now you have the city of Fairbanks, are you expected to go out into rural areas as well?

Paul
Not in my current position. All the clients come in, but we also have tele-health, so they can call in or video in from wherever they are. And most of them live within greater Fairbanks. And we have, we're right on the bus line. So when I was in Kodiak, I would fly to the different villages for a week at a time, and we would provide care for folks who didn't wanna fly in.

Pat
You're painting a picture of people attracted, therapists attracted to coming to Alaska, but living in Alaska is very different than their idea of Alaska. And so what is it that people should know, thinking about moving to Alaska? There's the image of Alaska, it's rugged, it's beautiful, but what is that other side that makes it so challenging for people coming up from the Lower 48? 

Paul
50 Degrees below zero.

Pat
Okay. Okay.

Paul
That can be a shock to the system. And you know, I tell people, okay, it's, it's 50 below outside, but it's 75 and sunny every day in your office. You're only outside when you get to the car or get to the office. So the weather changes are pretty great. 

We don't have a lot of access to other things. It's difficult to get anywhere from Alaska. In Alaska, if I fly back to the East coast, it's a day and a half, you know, so you have to plan an extra day on both ends of your trip. In other areas of Alaska, it's difficult to even fly out because of the weather. You could be socked in because of fog or wind or what have you. So, your travel plans can change. And it's expensive. The cost of living up here is really high.

Paul
But to me, I don't, I don't see these things as major obstacles. I enjoy it. I think maybe someone who left Alaska who wasn't fond of it, would be a better person to answer the question. Because for me, it's, I drive, I see some of the most beautiful scenery when I leave my house and driving to work. I see Denali every day, or when she's out,driving up the sea when I'm going to work, or even going on a call. And you're just surrounded by beauty and you never know what you're gonna see. I think you've seen on, on my Facebook, the moose just, I was gonna say by the car, and it's like, my security camera's going off. What's out there? Oh, there's a moose eating, eating the leaves in front of my car. Cool. So you really never know what you're going to see. And I like that excitement. And plus I like being outside. You know, I like to fish and hunt and camp and, and just be outdoors and do things. And the weather isn't an obstacle for that because we have great arctic gear. So, you can go out all, all 12 months of the year and do stuff.

Pat
Well, I have to say, since you mentioned your Facebook posts, it's almost like a travel log. I've never been to, I've been to Europe. I've traveled the Middle East, but I've never been to Alaska. And looking at your Facebook posts, the terrain is absolutely beautiful, the mountains, the waterfalls, and then the winter scenes, those tundra scenes, I'm from Minnesota and you know, we get sometimes minus 40, but where you're at, it looks really, really extreme and desolate.

Paul
It's  not so desolate. I mean, no, it's not desolate. It's just a road that leads you, just leads you somewhere. But the pictures don't even do it justice. And I got to the point when I was in Kodiak, I stopped taking pictures. I just gave up because when I'm flying to these, to these remote villages, you know, you're flying over the ridge over and you just look out and all you see are, are summits and you, you can't capture it in a picture. You really cannot capture it. And so I feel badly for the folks that haven't experienced it firsthand, because the pictures are great, but it doesn't do it justice. There's too much to capture in a, in a photograph. Yeah.

Pat
So Fairbanks, can you tell us about the population? Is it mainly people who are from Alaska living there? Do you have a lot of people or some people from different parts of the world or country coming up there? What kind of mix do you have?

Paul
It's an incredibly, diverse mix. Of course, we have our homegrown folks, people that were born here who were called, um, Native Alaskans. Then you have the Alaskan native population, which are indigenous, are Indigenous Peoples who live up here. 

But we have the highest population per capita of veterans in the country. We also have a lot of military bases given our proximity to Russia. And we have just a lot of people that will retire here, they'll come here, be stationed, ... then retire and come back. So it's a lot more diverse than people give it credit for. And I think Fairbanks especially has  a lot of people from a lot of walks of life and a lot of different backgrounds. But we have a healthy mix. I know at the, at my clinic, we have a number of people that have come in and we have a lot of homegrown talent as well.

Pat
Paul, can you tell us about the work you do at the clinic, the people you interact with?

Paul
Well, pretty much just like I've said, people from all walks of life, we see, uh, people that are both on Medicaid and we see people that have private insurance. So we see the entire spectrum of, of socioeconomic status. We're right on the bus line so people that don't have cars can make it in as well. And see people that, we have a lot of trauma up here. People have gone through some really rough stuff up here. And they've had to find ways of coping that really aren't adequate. And so having to go in and change those thoughts and behaviors from people that's been productive to them, to a point, is a real challenge.

Pat
Yeah. I'm curious, being in Alaska, what do you think is the most important lesson that you get from the Alaskan environment that guides you in your work and life?

Paul
I think that it, it exposes character. I think that you really find out what you're capable of and what you're made up of. Up here. When I say it's a harsh environment, it's not just the climate. Sometimes the environments we find ourselves in, social settings we find are in, can be really difficult. 

But I'm also really impressed by the resilience that my clients have. I mean, I don't know that I would be able to survive some of the things that they've experienced in their lives. And so, where we often give medals and deservedly so to our military personnel, some of these folks just getting out of bed, I think that they need a medal just for getting out of bed with what they've gone through in life. And so that is inspiring to see how these folks can still get up and still live productive lives despite the amount of systemic and intergenerational trauma that they and their family systems have experienced. Yeah. It's, it's amazing. Like some of these folks are just incredible. And to see them make gains, I've been here for over a year now, and actually I've been here for four years, but I've been at this clinic for just over a year. And to see how these clients respond and to see that they can now take control of their substance use or their inability to control their emotions, they can handle things in, in a much more productive way. It's inspiring. It's good to see that. 

Pat
Looking ahead, how do you envision the, uh, future of mental healthcare in this environment?

Paul
Well, I think that it, it's, obviously, it starts at the national level. I think that there's a tremendous stigma regarding behavioral health. And a lot of times it's looked at as something that people don't believe in. Because we don't administer medication, we don't extract teeth, we don't provide surgery. We just sit in a room and listen to people. And I think a lot of folks misunderstand the impact that competent psychotherapy can provide.  

I think maybe the media has, has not done us any favors as well. When you look at some of the way therapists or the profession is portrayed in the media, it looks a little hokey. And I probably wouldn't go to any of those therapists that I saw on television. I just tell my staff, my clients that it's just nothing more than two people in a room talking. And I tell them to refer it like a transfer station, you come and you dump out your stuff, and then you might keep some things that might be helpful, or maybe I'll give you some things that might be helpful tools to use, and then we'll talk about it when you come back. I think that we need to remove barriers to care, and we need to provide increased access. And that was really the thing that did me in the first time. I didn't have adequate access to care.

Pat
You mean for yourself personally, or for your clients?

Paul
Well, for myself, because there were no other clinicians in the area. But I think that the more competent therapists we have, the stronger the community will be. I see seven clients a day, and I can't see nine 'cause I see seven. But if, if you have 30 clinicians that can see seven where you're gonna be able to treat the community, obviously you're gonna be able to see more people. So I think that we all need to find ways to remove barriers to care and increase access to services. And we need to be sharp for what we do. There are a lot of really profound treatment modalities that are coming out. I'm also trained in EMDR. I have some friends who are trained and certified in brain spotting, which is sort of like the next generation of EMDR.

Pat
Wait! What do those initials mean?

Paul
EMDR, I'm sorry. It stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. And you essentially use senses, whether it's eye movement, I use... tappers, which are these pads that vibrate in your hands. And sometimes you can use audio signals to help put someone in what's called a window of tolerance, where you're creating a temporary dissociative episode so that they can identify a target image and change a negative cognition about that image into a positive cognition, so that when it, when they think about it, again, they don't think that they're a failure, they think that they are a success. So that's pretty much the short and quick of it, but it's really powerful. 

Pat
I wanna put this in layperson terms even more so. If someone comes in, let's say they were fired from their job and they're feeling this horrific shame and embarrassment and the trauma of that. How does that form of therapy (EMDR) that you just described, how would you use it for that person who's traumatized by being fired? They didn't expect it. 

Paul
Well, I would ask them to identify that target image and what they thought about themselves, not how they felt, but how they thought about themselves. And they might say, I think I'm worthless or I'm worthless. It's like, okay, you hold onto that. And then you ask them, when they say that I'm worthless, where do you feel it in your body? Like, where does that tension develop? They might say, it feels it in my chest. And how strong is it? Well, it's like a, it's like a 9 or a 10, so it's pretty strong. 

And so then we'll say, what would you rather think about yourself? And they might say, well, I want to think about myself and say that I, I am worthwhile, and I am worthy. Okay, then let's go with that. And they may not believe that at first. And so the validity of that positive cognition is very low. They don't believe it. And then through EMDR over, you know, several sets, it might take an hour, it might take more than an hour. It might take several hours for them to start to believe and realize that they'll have that target image, but they still, then they then believe that they are worthy.

Pat
Okay.

Paul
And so it doesn't traumatize them when they think of getting fired. Okay. So that's, there's a, there's a lot more to it than that. But that's of course the essence of it, removing a negative thought and replacing it with a positive thought so that that target image doesn't bother you anymore.

Pat
Now, from the micro aspects of this, I want to jump to the macro aspects. In our culture, we put time limits. You alluded to it a little bit earlier, like, if someone is depressed, well, you know, get over it. Watch tv, do something. I see it, especially when people are grieving and they're told, okay, you had two week’s time to get back to life. And grief is not something that has a shelf life. It has a life all of its own. So in this culture people have families to take care of, elderly parents maybe and children, but we don't structure in our care, healthcare or corporate care that people can take time off to take care of an aging parent or have time to grieve. It seems like we're always on this treadmill. Always moving.

Paul
Yeah. It's tough to find ways to grieve appropriately. And grieving is an entirely singular process. It's a singular experience, and no one can tell someone how long or in what manner you should grieve provided that you're not hurting, really hurting yourself or someone else. But when I have clients who agree and say, look, when you feel like crying cry. Don't invalidate what you're feeling. You have a right to those feelings. Then if you need to go somewhere and cry, then cry. If you need to go out and scream at the moon, then scream at the moon. The important thing is you have to validate what you're feeling and how you're feeling. And it's also important to remind yourself that this is temporary. Maybe I'll feel the same way tomorrow or maybe in, in another hour. But how I'm feeling right now in this moment will go away. Eventually. I actually learned that at a fire call. 

Pat
Wait a minute, before you go any further, you are a volunteer firefighter?

Paul
Yes. And a long time ago, I was at this fire, and I think it was one of my first fires. And I showed up and the whole house was just, was just cooking off. And I said, man, that's a huge fire. And the lieutenant said, well, I just want, you know, every fire I've been on is out today. I thought, you know, that's a, that's a really good way of looking at it. And he goes, yeah, it just,  you focus on what you need to do, but every fire, no matter how big it is, is out now. And so I try to remind my clients that no matter how bad you're feeling right now, you are going to get through it. It might feel like it's endless, but it's not. And you might feel this way for a long time, but the more you can tell yourself that this is temporary, I'll get through this. We, we take the energy out of that despair. 

Pat
Someone once said to me, quote, we are not our feelings. And I thought about that, you know, sometimes I can get really worked up about something. I'm feeling it, but I am not the feeling. I'm experiencing the feeling and it's washing over me and I'm reacting, but I'm not the feeling. Does that make sense?

 Paul
It does. And a lot of times when we feel something strongly, we're connecting it to something in our past, the last time we felt that way, or the worst time we felt that way. And since I worked with children and families for an extensive time, I can trace everything back to a childhood experience. It doesn't have to be traumatic, but it could be memorable. So part of our brain, like a reticular activating system, it retains memory. And so a lot of times we are upset about something that's happening today and that's because it feels familiar to us. It feels like the last time I was abandoned...made me feel badly. The brain tries to connect the dots. And we have to tell ourselves, this feels the same, but it's not the same. This has nothing to do with that.

Paul
If we can tell ourselves that,  we then tend to reduce the energy of the past and bring it into the present saying, okay, the waitress who spilled the drink on me isn't the same mother who dumped a bucket of milk on me because I spilled milk at the dinner table. This is not, the same. One has nothing to do with the other, but it feels the same. And reminding ourselves of that keeps us from allowing our feelings to turn into behaviors that we get in trouble for. You can't get in trouble for your feelings. You can only get in trouble for your behaviors in the subsequent behavior.

Pat
Well, as we, uh, get down to the end of the hour, I'm curious, with all the work that you're doing, Paul, what legacy do you hope to leave behind in your field? What changes do you hope that you could accomplish by being who you are and where you are and what you're doing?

Paul
Oh, wow. I don't know. Just that the clients that I've reached live productive and healthy lives, and they have lives. They become parents who raise healthy and productive children. I think that's the legacy I'd like to leave. That the people I've touched move on to do great things. Jobs change. And I remember when my, my dad retired, uh, the president said, the president of the college said, Paul, I just want to know that, you know, you could stayed here as long as you want, but the moment we're changing your position, left power over the 30 years he was there close to 30 years. And so the president thought, well you've got a lot of power. So she broke up his position to like three different departments. And so a lot of his legacy is still there, but it's not as intact as it once was. And so when I leave a position, whatever happens after me is something that I can't control. But when I think of the folks at CVA, I like to think that I had some part in helping those kids become successful artists and designers and family members. And that's the legacy. So it deals more so with the people I can touch directly and less about institutions I leave behind. 

Pat 

Yeah. Well, one of the things that seems very important to me is, or the question that I ask myself at the end of the day is, does my being here make a difference? 

Pat 

That's the only question, really. And I have to say, Paul, from everything you've talked about, it's so obvious that your being there makes a difference. And I wanna thank you for joining us with such grace and candor about what you're doing. And also all the wildlife and the fishing and everything that you're doing is just amazing. And keep doing the photographs of the Aurora Borealis. Those are breathtaking.

Paul
Thank you. Well, it's just a part of enjoying life. I learned from my parents. I just, I had a great start. I came from  a great family, you know, they, they were tough on us, but they were fair. And you know, I was lucky. I was lucky enough to have not only two great parents, but great godparents, great aunts, and uncles. And they were all older than me because my dad was the youngest and I'm the youngest. So I had a lot of people looking out for me who gave me permission to fail and pick me up when I did. So it's okay to fail. What I tell my clients is, did you do the best you could and did you cause no harm? And sometimes we can do the best we can and still fail. And that's, that's not a failure. That's, that's just a lesson. And we can't let that defeat us. Most of what we do in life is a failure anyway. But you have to just keep fighting and keep pushing. You can't give up. You just can't quit.

Pat
Whoa, Paul, I'm gonna leave it at that note. Thank you so much for joining us and thank you listeners. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast. If you did, please subscribe, and tell your friends. Thank you. Till next time. Bye.