Fill To Capacity (Where Heart, Grit and Irreverent Humor Collide)
Podcast for people too stubborn to quit and too creative not to make a difference!Join visual artist Pat Benincasa in conversation with a riveting roster of guests to uncover extraordinary stories of everyday people. Listen as they share their quirky wisdom, unlikely adventures, and poignant life lessons! Fasten your emotional seatbelt for this journey of heart, humor and grit!
Fill To Capacity (Where Heart, Grit and Irreverent Humor Collide)
Beyond the ER: The Wisdom Quest
In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. Laura Gabayan, a leader in ER medicine and wisdom research at UCLA, shares insights from her groundbreaking book "Common Wisdom." Born to Kurdish immigrants and having faced numerous life challenges herself, Dr. Gabayan embarked on a quest to understand the essence of wisdom by interviewing 60 individuals nominated as wise across North America. Through their stories and her rigorous analysis, she identified eight core elements of wisdom, including kindness, humility, and curiosity.
Brace yourself for an illuminating journey as Dr. Gabayan unravels how the pursuit of wisdom can light our paths, leading us to profound meaning, deep contentment, and an unshakable connection to our shared humanity - even amidst life's thorniest complexities.
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Fill to capacity, where heart, grit and irreverent humor collide. A podcast for people too stubborn to quit and too creative not to make a difference. Hi, I'm Pat Benincasa and welcome to Fill to Capacity Today, episode number 76, beyond the ER the Wisdom Quest. My guest is Dr Laura Gabayan, a leader in emergency medicine and wisdom research at UCLA. Born to Kurdish immigrants and having experienced a multifaceted array of life challenges, dr Gabayan explores the essence of wisdom through her groundbreaking wisdom research project. She has taken her expertise in emergency medicine beyond the ER and into the heart of human understanding with her book Common Wisdom, which is packed with transformative insights.
Speaker 2:And I have to say, listeners, I read the book and I found it so relatable the combination of life stories, insights, vulnerabilities and heartfelt truths and wonderful quotes throughout. Well, I'm just going to tell you it's the kind of book you just want to hang on to it, okay. So join us as we explore how her pursuit of wisdom can illuminate our paths and perhaps lead us to a little more understanding of our own lives. Welcome, dr Gubayan, so nice to have you here. Well, thank you for having me. I've been so looking forward to this conversation. Before we begin, can you please tell my listeners who are the Kurdish people.
Speaker 1:Well, the Kurdish people don't have a country and they are limited to the Middle East. In several different countries they vary in religions and they're a tribe, they're more tribal and they vary in the languages they speak as well. Like my father's side, and my family makes and family spoke a different dialect of Kurdish. It's interesting, though it's more of a strength. They're very strong warriors and I feel like that's where I get my sense from too.
Speaker 2:So, Laura, growing up as the only daughter of Kurdish immigrants, I think you attended like eight schools before starting high school and settling into Los Angeles. How did your personal history influence your decision to pursue emergency medicine?
Speaker 1:Well, I realized that I am a control freak. I like to control, because as a kid you really don't have control. And I went to school over and over again, I changed a lot of schools and then finally, when I went to college, I knew I wanted to be a physician. And then, when I went to college, I knew I wanted to be a physician. Then, when I went to medical school, I chose emergency medicine, also because I wanted to control. I wanted to know what happens to people in the middle of nowhere and how I would treat them. That's why I chose it.
Speaker 1:Then, after that, I did fellowship Fellowship is kind of like a concentration and my concentration was in research and and that's when I got my master's as well. And then I published a lot and partly throughout this I my body started to fall apart and I was like wait, I thought I had control, but control is an illusion and I did not. And that's when I also I knew that I have a background in research, but I did not know anything else and the physicians I saw were so quick to judge and label. In a way it was a curse. And then I decided to pursue wisdom and that's why I wrote the book Common Wisdom after I interviewed 60 wise individuals. Now, one thing I do want to make sure I mention you read it, Pat is that it's a very simple book. I used a lot of science to come up with it, but I wrote it in a very simple manner.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm really curious because in your book you shared that personal experience of being diagnosed with a serious condition in 2013. And then in 2015, you were told hey, this is getting worse and so you're doing highly demanding work in the ER, plus dealing with your own serious health issues. How did you manage all that and decide to research wisdom?
Speaker 1:Well, I didn't decide right away. I think it definitely took a lot of beating it out of me. I mean, it really took me to experience the total like aha moment, in a way of you know what this is not working, and that's when I decided to pursue wisdom, probably around COVID, Okay. So it took time for me from the time I found out I had a condition in 2013, till COVID was around 2020 for me to kind of figure out you know what this is not working. By 2015, I was so ill I could only see patients in a wheelie chair and I might as well have been in a wheelchair, but I used the wheelie or those chairs they use in offices to go talk to people. I'd wheel myself over to their bed and I'd talk to them. I mean, after all, it took a lot I don't know how to say it took a lot.
Speaker 2:Well, you said it in the beginning, you come from warrior ancestors, so I think it just kind of fits in with your persona. Now, before we go into the book and the project, I was curious did you have a definition of wisdom in mind before you did the research and write Common Wisdom?
Speaker 1:I had no idea what it was. And when you do research, there's two things. There's two types. There's the type where you start with a hypothesis and you have an idea and you test it, and there's a kind where it's the foundation of that and it's kind of like you have no idea and you take a story and you convert it to data. And that's what I did with this. I had no idea and I initially was looking at tests. You know what tests can you test for wisdom? Can other questionnaires? Are there this? And? But I realized no, the only people who can identify wisdom are the wise. Okay, the wise are the only ones that have it and and that's where I also I looked at. So you have to look at what has been done before. So the 60 people I spoke with, I interviewed were age 50s, 60s and 70s.
Speaker 2:Okay, excuse me, so my listeners know, you selected, through a process, 60 people age 59 to 79? 50 to 79. Okay, you went through a process of finding people that were wise and people could not recommend themselves. They had to be recommended to you. That was your pool of people.
Speaker 1:And I had no say in who these people were. No say in who these people were and as a researcher, you really can't, that would be biased, so I did not know anyone that was there.
Speaker 1:They were recommended to me and I posted on social media, on the internet, on the story where I asked around do you know someone who was? And finally, and there were people who were nominated all over the country, and then finally there were people who were nominated all over the country and then finally it involved Canada as well, and that's why it's North.
Speaker 2:America. Okay, now in your book you have a wonderful quote wisdom can't be measured with a scale, but rather a person is declared wise simply through another person's opinion. Now, studying something as abstract as wisdom must have come with its unique set of challenges. Could you talk about some of the research hurdles you faced and how you managed to navigate them?
Speaker 1:You know, I was so determined to find those people and someone said to me well, someone who is wise will know someone who is wise. And that's how, and I had a great team. I had a research assistant and a marketing person, and then the research assistant helped me communicate with the wise person I interviewed and find more people being nominated. So if one person recommended, nominated two other people, it kept going on and that's how it continued.
Speaker 2:So you had a process of handing out a questionnaire.
Speaker 1:No, I think it was just. You know, initially it was complicated. I don't know if they went all the way to the end. Wisdom is not limited by gender, by political affiliation or race, but it is limited or based on the region someone comes from.
Speaker 1:So, like Asia or the Middle East or North America, has a different idea of what wisdom may be. And so initially it's funny because people were just so honored to be recommended. They were happy to speak with me and they had to fill out a questionnaire talking about where they came from, etc. And then they had to set up a call, a calendar appointment with me and Zoom time with me, and I had someone help me with that.
Speaker 2:Now it's interesting because you've anticipated my next question. Considering your background and the global nature of your study, I was going to ask you did you see cultural influences shaping their understanding of wisdom? And I think you started to say yes, there were cultural or regional differences In the research there is.
Speaker 1:In the group I spoke with, I would say, about around 20 people At 20, I was hearing the same things, but being the researcher that I am, I was like, no, that's not enough, let's keep going. And I kept going and going and then we got to 60. I think we heard the same things because we were limited to North America, okay, and then in the book.
Speaker 2:This was really fascinating. You found eight elements of wisdom that you identified through the research. Is that what you're talking about? That people kept going to the same things and you began to see a pattern of similar things coming up.
Speaker 1:Well, one of the questions I asked people were why were they nominated for the study? And so kindness was definitely a big one. That was the second element and let me tell you all the elements Resilience, kindness, positivity, spirituality, humility, tolerance, creativity and curiosity. And it was so kindness was definitely something that people were kind to themselves or kind to mankind. They volunteered, they had nonprofits and those that was there. But resilience was also really interesting. Most of the people I spoke with, as you would know, as you read the book, they they encountered horrible life events.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it seems like they found meaning in their life by either helping others or talking about those experiences. I found that interesting as well.
Speaker 1:That horrible life event in a way really made them, it shaped them, it changed them, but it definitely helped them help others.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, you could see from your own personal experience, having a serious illness brings you to your knees emotionally, spiritually, in so many ways. And here you are doing this wonderful research coming out of that. So it seems like you're fitting into this pool of people out of that.
Speaker 1:So it seems like you're fitting into this pool of people. Well, I definitely. You know, when someone asks me of the eight, what do I identify with? I'm very positive, I've always been a very positive person and, having encountered this, I'm just overall very resilient. I view this and I say in my resilience chapter things don't happen to you, they happen for you. And when you have that perspective, when you kind of look at, something is okay, it's here to teach me something. It's horrible, I'm miserable, I don't like it, I'm not happy, but I'm here to learn something, I think that changes the way you look at it.
Speaker 2:You know that one knocked the wind right out of me, that things happen not to you but for you. Oh my gosh, that changes everything. Sometimes I can go into a situation like, oh my gosh, this happened, this happened. Woe is me until I say enough. But there's a way that people can implode things happening to them. But when you think it's happening for me, the question is what am I to learn from this?
Speaker 1:Right, and the idea is, instead of asking why me, asking why not me? I can do it, I can handle it.
Speaker 2:Yep. So in today's fast-paced world, dominated by the pursuit of fame, quick rewards, what crucial role do you believe wisdom plays?
Speaker 1:Well, first of all, I didn't know what wisdom was, and I think it's just something that is not sexy, it's not understood. I feel like, if anything, we need it more now and it's a pseudonym for having meaning in your life, being content, having depth, having, you know, just a sense of happiness, yeah, regardless of what situation you're in. So most people I think my answer to that is people will not know what wisdom is.
Speaker 1:They will not pursue it and most of the people I spoke with did not go like wow, I feel so honored to be an Omni. I didn't think that, but most people that are wise do think that you know they'll be okay.
Speaker 2:I was curious. We live in a culture that really, really focuses on youth, and older cultures revere older people, people who have lived the wisdom that they have, but it seems like in this country we are the media, the hype movies. Popular culture is about youth. How does that play out with this regard for wisdom?
Speaker 1:about youth. How does that play out with this regard for wisdom? No, I think one of the questions I had for the interviewees was what advice they have for the younger population, and the majority said to me oh God, I feel bad for them, and the idea was it's true, I mean, emotions are a big part of their life.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And as you realize that as life takes its course, as you get older, emotions take a back seat. They're there, they're upset. You can be upset, but at the end of the day it can't overwhelm you. So you can't dwell in being sad. You have to move forward. You can't give up. You have to move forward.
Speaker 2:I'm in my seventh decade and there's a point when you accumulate decades, to me they're like pearls on the string of life. Each one is so different and wonderful the things I've learned, but the idea that things happen and these emotions that we're feeling. I think somewhere in my life I figured out I am not my feelings. I can feel the sadness, I can feel concern about a situation, but I am not that feeling, I'm just feeling it. I got to tell you, laura, lights went off when I figured that one out that I don't get. I don't have to succumb to the feeling. I can feel it in its fullness, but I am not the feeling.
Speaker 1:So it came and went, oh God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but I have to say I felt it, I allowed myself to feel the fullness of it. I'm not dismissing the feelings. I'm feeling them, but I am not the feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's. You know what, though? I think someone that is younger, in their 20s or 30s, may not feel that way Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they don't have the context of years lived for discernment. You know the world we live in right now. The global atmosphere sometimes may feel uncertain, chaotic, soul crushing at times. All these things are going on. How do the 60 people in your study respond or cope?
Speaker 1:It was a sense of I don't know. If they had this upheaval about them, they didn't get upset and boy did they go through a lot. They seemed at peace. So, in a weird way, they seem to appease and so, in a weird way, it's not being apathetic to what's going on. It's just saying, okay, it'll be okay. You know it's bad, it's bad out there, there's a lot going on, but it'll be okay. Yeah, you're looking back and all of the literature and the research of people.
Speaker 1:I definitely found the persistent theme of humility as being one of them, and that's one of our elements, and some were like, oh, being humble is being wise. I think the Buddha said that, and it's not just being humble, but I think being humble is definitely one of them. Humble, but I think being humble is definitely one of them. And the idea that I mentioned in my book is it shouldn't make you feel good, to make someone else feel bad, and that's the idea of you know what? Have some emotional intelligence, realize who you're speaking with, have a sense of it's okay, and I want to relate to you, I want to communicate, and that's more important than you showing up. I really have an issue with someone who is not down to earth, who likes to show up. There will always be someone who knows more, who's accomplished more, who's more wealthy. There's always going to be that.
Speaker 2:Yes, I like to think of it. There will always be someone smarter in the room than me.
Speaker 1:There's always going to be a person yeah, with more something than you, and also.
Speaker 2:I think humor has a lot to do with this too. I found that people who are very brittle or don't seem to laugh or take the joy in life, I think you take harder hits without humor.
Speaker 1:You know it was. So the way you do qualitative research is you take many themes that you see and you collapse them, and we saw over 20 initially, and humor was a big theme that went into positivity. And so, yes, you know I think I mentioned it that I had a guy I remember he grew up with two alcoholic parents who were laughing all the time and then he thought it was his upbringing and I said to him I remember I said no, it's not your upbringing, it has to do with what we've been. I have found a lot of people are funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd like to go back to something very basic. What really separates wisdom from mere knowledge? What's the difference?
Speaker 1:You know it's funny, because what I say to people is just think of the people you know that have a lot of knowledge or a lot of degrees and they may not make good decisions, they may not live good lives, and vice versa. You may have someone with a sense of wisdom, a sense of perspective, a sense of the way they live, but they may not be highly educated, so one or the other.
Speaker 1:But they may not be highly educated, so one or the other. Initially, the people I hired assumed that they're related and then they realized no, and most people do think they're related, but no. The answer is yeah, you may have someone who's wise, who may pursue more education. They may be curious.
Speaker 2:That was one of our elements, but overall, no, I think that's an important point. I've met brilliant people, but in terms of EQ emotional quotient it's like knock, knock, who's there? No one's there and it's breathtaking that they can be so profoundly knowledgeable in their expertise, but in terms of being empathic or being connected to listen to another human being, it seems like they're a little bit off kilter there, right, so the two are not related yeah.
Speaker 2:Well then that's good to clear up. Two are not related. Yeah, well then that's good to clear up. Okay, what advice can you offer our listeners on how they could start to integrate the elements of wisdom that you talk about in your book, or does your book talk about that, how they can implement these things?
Speaker 1:Well, it definitely talks about what they are, and I think that's where it starts. I mean, you may be looking at LA and saying, well, I'm not good at this, how can I make this better? And I don't say do this or that, because everyone has a different style, like for me. When I found out the 8th, having been from the Middle East, kindness was definitely something that shocked me. Wow, that was a big one. And it was not something that was promoted where I came from. It was not something I grew up with, it was not a strength, but yet these people had it and it was something I pay attention more to now. Being kind, it's not easy if you haven't grown up with it. I have to say it's not easy, but it's something I'm working towards.
Speaker 2:So basically what you're saying is people read your book and they're looking and examining these eight different components to wisdom. Actually, I like that about your book. You allow the reader to pick and choose, like, oh, I could work on this area. Oh yeah, I mean, you make it very accessible to kind of self-reflect in the eight elements of wisdom that you are calling out.
Speaker 1:That's a goal. I mean, that's also the goal, was that's why I was like let me write a simple relatable book and each person can decide what component they're good at and what they're not.
Speaker 2:I love how you make wisdom fluid. I got that impression. It's this beautiful fluidity to wisdom. It's not something that the sky opens up and you're imparted with wisdom Okay, but the way you portray it and all these wonderful people that you interviewed, I had the image of this very fluid thing that doesn't make it static. So, for example, teaching high school art, I would explain to kids. I would say you have to grow into your talent. And they'd look at me because they thought if they had the talent, all they had to do is make the painting. But it's so much more than that. We have to grow into our talents and wisdom is something that we grow into. It's fluid. It changes as we change. That really struck me in your book.
Speaker 1:It's funny. Someone asked me is it something you will aspire to get in life or is it going to help you live a more meaningful life? And I think, as you said, it's both. First of all, it's realizing it's many different components make up wisdom, and having it will help you live, or having more of one or the other will help you live a more meaningful life.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, laura. The question becomes then is my life meaningful? And there's a point of self-reflection what constitutes a meaningful life?
Speaker 1:I think the answer to that is individual.
Speaker 1:I think everyone has their own definition. I don't think, and you can ask anyone. It's not having the wealth, it's not having the goodness and glamour, because all of that can come and go and you don't want anything. That's so temporary and that's so superficial, and it's having depth and it's saying to yourself will this make me happy in 20 years? Will this bring me happy in 20 years? Will this bring me satisfaction in 20 years? It may or may not, but at the end of the day, the things that will give you a meaningful life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I find it interesting that mystics I'm thinking of Teresa of Avila or Catherine of Siena when you look at these people. Teresa of Avila talks about going to the inner castle, catherine of Siena talks about going to the cell of knowledge, the inner cell of knowledge. And both these women faced a lot in their life. You know medieval situations. It was, you know, pretty rugged and they would go to the interior. They would collect themselves, if you will, going to the inside, and sometimes I wonder do we lose that in this culture?
Speaker 1:Well, this culture I mean right now, having the Internet has helped, right, it has benefits in that things are more rapidly delivered to you, but in the same sense, you say you're interested in one thing and the internet just goes with it, and it creates more polarity, more anger, more dissatisfaction. And so a part of me is like well, I think it's a curse to have this and this culture, as advanced as it is. It's causing people to be unhappy.
Speaker 2:The Internet is both a blessing and a curse. I agree. We dazzle ourselves with the amount of information at a keyboard. The information is staggering, but the question is what do we learn?
Speaker 1:That's the question and also is it good information? Is it accurate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh boy, that's a whole different discussion about discernment as to what is factual and citing sources that are reliable Absolutely. And I think that's the researcher in you coming out and saying you know, are you proving these points? Where are you getting this information? Is it tested? Just because?
Speaker 1:it's written doesn't mean it's true, and we see that often, whether it's in articles, whether it's editorials or on the internet, just as written is not that's true yeah, so you've done this book of exploring wisdom.
Speaker 2:Are there other areas of this research that you discovered that you might want to explore further or add to this at some point, or are you done with this?
Speaker 1:I think I'm done with it. You know someone was like oh, I thought about your next book. I'm like that's not my purpose. My purpose is not to be an author. You know, I did something. I discovered something really interesting and important and something we've all looked to all our lives. Yeah, what I tried to understand. But so now my purpose is to tell people about it and spread the word to as many people as I know.
Speaker 2:You know. As you're a physician scientist, I'm just curious in your field of medicine, how do you think your findings about wisdom could impact the practice of medicine or the training of future doctors?
Speaker 1:Look, I don't know. I don't know how it'll impact them because, in a way, what led me to do this was my own health issues and encountering physicians who were not willing to think outside the box.
Speaker 1:So when I think about other physicians, they may view wisdom as, oh good, not that important right. So I'm not so sure it's something they would want to. They would probably give it credibility because they know I'm a rigorous researcher and I find really good methodology to do this, to find this out, but I don't know if they would really care about wisdom per se.
Speaker 2:So Okay, If I were queen of the universe, I would require your book for anybody studying medicine, studying law, education, being teachers or instructors. It just seems like it reinforces so many humane things about engaging with people in a professional practice too.
Speaker 1:I agree. I agree and I feel like all of the chapters. I think about them. They really reinforce the importance of being able to communicate with others. Yes, and raising. I know there's a book about raising good humans, but it's like those eight elements that I found in the people I interviewed are things you want to teach all people. So you said the physicians or lawyers. Part of me was like anyone entering high school should learn right, like anyone becoming an adult should be able to read this. It's so easy to read they should be able to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a very good point, especially because high school is a time when young people are forging their identities. That would be a great required reading for them. True, you know you made the decision to scientifically study wisdom and then you publish this wonderful book. How has this journey changed your own life and perspectives?
Speaker 1:First of all, I realized, you know, wisdom is not easy to understand and the whole process made me think wait a second, this is my life's purpose Understanding this. You know, all of that training I went through made this my life's purpose. All of this learning of how to do research and publishing made this my life's purpose. I feel like I've learned so much by just meeting people. Yeah, that I feel like and yes, I'm definitely going through a lot still. But after meeting these people, I'm like, wow, you know, if you think you have it bad, you know someone else has it worse. And at the end of the day, I think it's just a sense of peace. As I said, it's a sense of being content, and I have more of that now. That's how it's changed me. I have more peace now. I'm like I don't let things bother me as much because I'm like, oh, it'll be okay. I suffered from a lot. I'm sure I was a very anxious control freak my whole life, and now I'm kind of more of like it's okay, it'll be okay.
Speaker 2:Well, that's wonderful. I mean that your search has given you that kind of peace.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know I'm not saying, oh, it was one way and it changed, but I definitely have seen, I've noticed the change and it's a work in progress, but I've definitely noticed that I laugh more. I just don't take things as seriously. End of the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've kind of come to that in terms of my age, that through all the decades of things happening, I'm still standing talking to younger people. It's always end of the world, the drama. Oh my God, this is happening. And I love teaching because I would just say you know two things follow your instincts, listen to the voice inside of you and trust it'll be all right. And I can say that because I've lived long and for younger people they don't have that kind of perspective. The book that you've written is sort of like this wonderful window of things to consider, to give you that perspective.
Speaker 1:I think it does, and that's the goal. The goal of the book is for it to be as if like a mentor, a friend, something that will stay with you for the rest of your life. And that's why I ask questions and I have two different dates, because your perspective is going to change. Yeah, in like five or ten years you're going to look at it and be like, okay, this is what I think about, like, for example, spirituality. I was not a very spiritual person to begin with, being in medicine and science, you know, you could only measure what you saw in life. Yeah, and it was not there, it was not measurable and did not exist. That's what I believed in and I did not understand. And spirituality changes for people with age. Whatever it would have experience, it just changes. At the end of the day, it's like, okay, go back to the book and say to yourself okay, how can this help me today? Yes, and what part do I need help with now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, your book feels like a friend. You just want to bring it around with you. You know I'm thinking about our conversation now. Wisdom it's written into us, we're always seeking it, yet it's elusive, almost enigmatic. And this search is a deeper longing to connect with something greater, something embedded in the fabric of our being. So, despite its elusive nature, this quest is what gives life its depth and richness, and it kind of forces us to grow and evolve. So I began to think. Wisdom, then, may not always be grasped fully, but its pursuit is what shapes our journey and defines our humanity, is what shapes our journey and defines our humanity, and this is what your work truly underscores.
Speaker 1:Well, I would say you should approach everything in life with humility and humanity, and so I agree with you. I think that this book, you know it brings you closer to it.
Speaker 2:Now, where can people find your book? Where can they purchase?
Speaker 1:it. So common wisdom is on amazon and and someone asked me once why did you label it common wisdom? And I'm like common, because the 60 people I interviewed were common. They were not famous, they were not celebrities, they were not positive, they were not famous, they were not celebrities, they were not college students, they were just common people.
Speaker 2:I did not know.
Speaker 1:And what was common amongst all of them were the eight elements, and that's why it's called common and it's on Amazon. It's funny because initially, when I wrote it, my editor was like you have written nothing. It's like a pamphlet, and it's because I like to be so to the point. Yeah, so it's still a short read, it won't take you long, but it's also very easy.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I have to just add here. I came across a Sufi poem by Ettar Nishapur, quote emerge from your confusion, find the inner seat of your humanity. There, a single breath will fill you with the answer to a hundred mysteries.
Speaker 1:Interesting. The answer to a hundred mysteries, I would say the question. I mean just.
Speaker 2:You know, like you, no one has answer no, I think living life is how we answer and respond to the call we learn yeah, basically well, laura, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your wisdom with Common Wisdom, your book. It was really a wonderful read and I really thank you for coming on today. Of course, thank you for having me, thank you and listeners. If you enjoyed today's podcast, tell your friends and subscribe. Thank you, bye.
