One Dam At A Time: When Rivers Run Free

Discover how removing dams isn't just about freeing water—it's about liberating the very soul of our landscapes. Journey with Marty Holtgren, a visionary fisheries biologist and social scientist, as he delves into the revolutionary world of river restoration. From the historic reconnection of Michigan’s Maple River to global dam removal trends, Marty shares fascinating insights into the delicate balance between science, culture, and community. His deep commitment to listening to and learning from Indigenous communities is a cornerstone of his work, fostering trust and mutual understanding in every project. 

His reverence for indigenous knowledge and his relentless drive to do what others say can't be done offer inspiration for anyone who believes in the power of restoration, resilience, and the untapped potential of our natural world.
This isn't just an episode—it's a call to action. Join us as we explore how restoring our rivers can mend our connection to nature and to each other, one free-flowing stream at a time.

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Chapters

• 0:06 River Restoration With Marty Holtgren
• 10:37 Restoring Rivers Through Multidisciplinary Approaches
• 26:41 Healing and Resiliency in River Restoration
• 29:54 Global Movement

Transcript

Pat
Fill To Capacity where heart grit and irreverent humor collide. A podcast for people too stubborn to quit and too creative not to make a difference.

Pat 
Hi, I'm Pat Benincasa, and welcome back to Fill To Capacity. Today, episode number 82, "One Dam At A Time: When Rivers Run Free." Now I have to give a shout out to Gigi Otten, public affairs specialist with the US Fish and Wildlife Service. I contacted Gigi wanting to do an episode about river ecosystems and dam removals. Could she recommend someone? She described my guest as being, quote, "a very passionate and interesting interviewee," end quote. Thank you, Gigi. To say that you are absolutely spot on is an understatement. 

My guest is Marty Holtgren, a fisheries biologist and social scientist with over 20 years of groundbreaking work in fisheries management, native species restoration, and cultural revitalization. As founder of Encompass Socio-Ecological consultants, he has led over 30 projects, restoring tribal fishing rights, raising endangered species like Lake Sturgeon, while reintroducing the rare Arctic Grayling to Michigan Waters.

Pat 
By the way, Michigan is the only state that's in 2 parts, an upper peninsula and a lower peninsula. And I know this 'cause I'm from Michigan originally. Okay. 

So, Marty is all about action and expertise. He's dedicated to working with local communities on restoration projects and with a PhD in fisheries biology, and a long list of research papers, he's got the knowledge to back it up. Now, what's so interesting is that Marty's work connects science directly to the protection of nature and culture. Well, welcome Marty. It's so nice to have you here.

Marty 
Well, thanks Pat. That was probably the nicest introduction I've ever received. Thank you. I hope I can live up to that.

Pat 

Well, it's well earned, Marty.  I'd like to give our listeners just a little bit of context, here in Michigan, the Maple River Restoration Project is a collaborative effort involving the Little River Band of Ottawa Indians, the Muskegon River Watershed, assembly, local residents and key partners. Hey Marty, can you tell folks where Muskegon is in the state?

Marty
I wish I could use a visual and use my hand right Pat, because you're from Michigan and we show the lower pens on our hand, but it it is on the west shoreline of Lake Michigan, and it's about halfway up. And Muskegon River flows into Lake Michigan. So Muskegon is a coastal town.

Pat
The project is centered on reopening a 4.6 mile river channel that's been disconnected since the mid 1800’s. The project will restore natural river flow, reduce flooding, improve wildlife habitats, and revive cultural and recreational opportunities for the local community. Marty, does that give an overview? What did I miss?

Marty 
I thought it gives a great overview and to me, the foundation of this project is looking at history and then how we can change what we know is our kind of, our current situation. And I think the exciting part, you hit this a 4.6 mile river channel, it's dry, and I've actually stood it in the channel. It's almost eerie, right? You're standing in this channel, you see the, the river banks and there's absolutely no water flowing through it. So it's been blocked that extreme. And prior to the 1880s, it was called ”anabranch.” And it was a word that I didn't know what anabranch meant before I started this project. And when you have a river that splits into two equal sizes, it forms an island. That's how Maple Island received its name. And then the river comes back, the two rivers come back together.

Marty 
And what they decided to do in the 1880s is basically dam up that one side of the river called the Maple River. And a piece of that history too, the names that were involved in damning that they're all the names we know because they’re street names. There's um, ...?  . John B  was one of the individuals that's in Grand Rapids, Michigan that was involved. So, all these names, as we start digging into it, start popping up, there's a reason why their names still exist. And then looking at those reasons  that it was blocked. It was to float logs down the river. And when you have that anabranching that splits, right? You start getting log jams, you get flooding. So they thought, well, the easiest way is to block one of those, increase water flow. Instead of having log jams, you have this nice flow of logs down in Muskegon Lake.

Marty 
And that was really the whole impetus be behind closing it. The interesting piece to me was once they got that energy going, it was really quick, the process of damming, and it took a couple years. They were able to navigate political structures, get funding for it, and it's done. And everyone listening to this knows to basically “un-fix,” that type of situation. It takes years and the planning that goes into that. It's just kind of this dichotomy of this really quick process versus this really laborious process of kind of “un-fix” it.

Pat 
We're gonna go into that deeply, but before we do that, I'm an artist and of course, I have to bring this up, altering rivers that's nothing new. Back in 1503 during a conflict between Florence and Pisa. Now a brief history folks, Italian renaissance, Italy city states, were always fighting with each other. Any pretext, they go after each other like crazy. Okay. Florence wanted to avoid war. They wanted to control the Arno River through some serious engineering. Enter Leonardo da Vinci who came up with a wild plan to divert the river by digging a massive channel and moving over a million tons of earth. Now, the plan never came to life. In fact, the Florentines, oh, they were a fickle lot. They picked this other guy, did his plan, and it was a disaster. Okay, I digress. Come back. Even though Da Vinci's plan didn't come to life, it does show visionaries have always known the power rivers have to shape both landscape and communities. 

Marty 
I love that. Absolutely. Rivers are power, right? Rivers, between countries, between states. It gives us access to resources, which couldn't be done otherwise. That's the whole story. I love that example because that ties in this project, right? River was power. River was finances and controlling.

Pat 
So now we're gonna fast forward, Marty, when you first heard about the initiative to reconnect the Maple River, what moved you the most about this project? Was it environmental, historical, or the personal impact?

Marty
Yes. All of those. And I love that question because those are those pieces that drive us, right? And when you have a 10-year process, 15-year process, you need those anchors. That keep you grounded, but then you find something to keep you moving forward. And there were a few pieces, and one to me was I worked for the Little River Band of Indians before I left and became a consultant. And understanding that natural resources and connections and community that's sacred, this work that we do is sacred. And also understanding that before the Maple River was blocked, treaties were signed, you know, that gave certain rights of occupancy. And when that river was blocked, it starts breaking those connections of us as people and our connections to the rivers and the landscape. That is one piece that I'm excited about is working with the tribe and reimagining, but bringing back those connections and those ceremonies that aren't historic.

Marty 
Right? They're current too and vibrant. One of the first people I met when his name is Roger Peacock, and the gentleman that he has advocated for reopening this river for decades, and his relatives actually probably some of the loggers that were involved in damning the River. So this is a personal story. And I remember standing there in the banks and just catching his vision and he kept asking, why can't we? We know it. It needs to be, there's so many benefits. And probably the big driver is every time I see him, and if he listens to this, and I'll probably blush, but he always tells me, Marty, I need this before I die. Oh, so there's this pressure, right? Because he wants to see that legacy, which was a legacy of, you know, being part of the damning Yeah. His family to that reciprocity.

Marty 
And bringing things full circle back to having a free-flowing river. Yeah. So that's a driver and, and the impact it'll have on the agricultural community. I've heard stories. I sat down with a farmer and we were talking about the impacts of flooding. So, because it's dammed when there's high rain events, there was one year they had 13 inches of rain in an hour rain. And all the river drained into this small, this river channel, and it overtop the banks, it went over roads. It basically closed down all of Maple Island. And he was telling me a story that the only way he could get to his mother was a canoe going across the farm fields, picked up his mom and canoed her back to a safe location. So, you hear those personal impacts. That's the driver, right? And it's, can we do this? Yes, we can. And if we're not, we're being shortsighted, you know, and  we're not in the place the space that we should be.

Pat 
Yeah. You know, my dad always said, “It's never a question of if, it's always a matter of how.”

Marty
That's Exactly, that's a beautiful way to look at it.

Marty 
That's story. That's the story. That's right. How do we do this? 

Pat 
In 2007, you co-authored an article with Nancy Auer called “Forging a New Path for Multicultural Fishery Management.” And then it was published in September, 2022. I'm gonna summarize just briefly here.

Michigan and five tribes came together to manage fisheries. But what they discovered was much deeper than fish state employees focused on Western education and laws, while tribal participants brought in community knowledge, sacred duties, and the importance of treaty rights for tribal members. It's about balance, a circle of life. While some non-tribal agency members blended both ways of thinking. So, what this shows is that to move forward, we need to bridge these cultural gaps, share power, and integrate indigenous knowledge into how we manage these precious resources. Marty, you've worked closely with both state and tribal agencies. What have been some of the most eye-opening moments for you in witnessing how differently state and tribal participants approach fishery management?

Marty 
Boy, wonderful. Wonderful question. And I think the approach when, and I'm a western trained scientist, and coming into it, I have, I don't like using the term, but  it's a toolbox what we call, right? We have these prescriptions that we can apply and they're straightforward and we, we move forward and many of the restoration projects look the same. And it doesn't incorporate those needs of the local community. And some of those things we don't think about, like culture, right? That wasn't something the sacredness of a fish, or manooma and the wild rice, that's not something that's second nature. It wasn't second nature to me to think about for restoration. And what I've learned through that process is when we use that narrowed Western lens, the outcome you get is also narrow and the benefit is narrowed. Right. And when you expand that out to really expanding your worldview and understanding, and one tribal member told me once when we were negotiating, said, not Marty, it's not what we want, it's what we need.

Marty
And it's digging down to those needs of what people have for these projects. And that's what I shoot at, right? Is what are these needs for the larger community? And the beauty of it is to, and you mentioned like for me, I'm a, a fisheries ecologist and social scientist. I have to bring in multiple disciplines because of, and bring in partners, you know, that, that bring in different worldviews because the knowledge that we get with indigenous knowledge, which is so deep.  And then bringing in Western knowledge, you have this beautiful, fairly comprehensive bubble of knowledge that we're pulling from. And then restoration's custom fit, right?  And then, you know, then that you're meeting those needs. That's the challenge, right? Because there's a hundred restoration scenarios, which one should we be moving towards?

Pat 
You know, Marty, you bring up an interesting point when I was reading about you with your biology and fisheries, and then I see social scientist and I'm looking at that thinking, what the hell is this? This is a scientist and he's... is this normal Marty, are you normal? 

Marty
Having this combined approach, I think it's, that's a good, am I normal? No, I'm not. Well, I gravitate towards multidisciplinary people like Nancy, how you brought up, she, and I coauthored the paper with, she's this wonderful person I learned with, passionate about lake and research, but also passionate about the fish, right? And handling it with care. We have a professor I'm working with from University of Wisconsin. She's in the English department and she's a river lover, but she brings it in this totally different element. And that's the excitement, right?  And it's not necessarily normal, but I think it's becoming more normal that you have to be able to transcend these boundaries and understand in a different way. So I, I think historically we were very compartmentalized. You're gonna approach the problem from a, a very, a narrow lens, but it's gonna be efficient and you're gonna get it done.

Marty 
You know, the western train of thinking is you have all of these different pieces floating out there in space. What your job is to be reductionist,  and take all of these. And you find this linear path that gets you to the end goal where some of these, the indigenous knowledge and local knowledge, it's not that way. Right? It's bringing in all these webs of connections. I think it's going to be become more the norm, is not to be the reductionist, but to bring in all these elements that influence and consider them as each as important facets of the bigger whole. Does that make sense? Oh,

Pat
It does, because I think in the last 30 years of education, we're seeing more siloed disciplines, colleges getting rid of liberal arts, for example. To me, I guess when I hear that, because for what you're saying is we should be able to flow between macro and micro views in dealing with a problem. And when we're linear like that, it reduces everything to Yes. No. black, white. And we lose that beautiful area of contradiction, the gray areas.

Marty 
Thank you. Yes. And I just went to a, it was a sturgeon restoration release for the tribes last week. And the beauty of it was the raising and the releasing of the fish. It's that being done in this indigenous, but also this, western. And they can be, you know,  I see them in, they work together, you know, I'm not compartmentalizing them, but they were releasing fish into the water under the backdrop of a Native American drum. And singing. And the power that that it brings in that element. You know, you're talking about the arts and being diminished. You can't diminish that. You know, when I look at the Maple River, just the natural beauty, it's artistic how a river carves itself, right? I have to be open to recognizing the art, which is all around me. And that's part of restoration, right?

Marty 
I want that art, I want that music. I want that beauty to be present as we move in this direction of restoration. Because what is restoration? We ask that. I'm never going to restore it back to its state that it was 500 years ago. But we can restore it back to something beautiful and comprehensive. I want you to be able to walk into the Maple River for the first time and feel like you belong.  And you and your senses become alive. And anyone that walks in and what they bring in, I want that beauty to just be surrounding and I can't do that compartmentalizing. And looking at a narrow outcome.

Pat 
I love how you bring in the sacred and ritual, because that's how we honor memory and work and people's lives, they matter. And so that piece to your work, and I see it when I was researching you, that you have this reverence for indigenous cultures, people who are living there now. It's like you embrace the totality of the situation. It's not just, oh, this or that. It's not that binary thinking. It's about the total picture. And what's interesting to me is how do you foster that kind of trust and mutual understanding between tribal communities and state agencies?

Marty 
“Trust” that you just brought up the word, right? Because when you have communities that have been historically marginalized, and  have had policies to marginalize and discredit and take away rights, it needs to be focused focusing within our lifetimes, right? That is something that we're going to try to be a piece of, pulling that together. And you know, one in that paper, and what I've learned is, we talk about I need to spend quality time with someone like your kids. When you're raising your kids, I don't wanna spend quality time with them. I wanna spend time, right? I wanna get to know them. I, I don't wanna pull out this moment and say, take me to this event, man, this would be great. Now it's those little moments that we have. I think it's also when we take that into these group or, or community situations too.

Marty
It's spending time. And it, and it's being honest. And I had a, a tribal person that went to a historical presentation and he looked at me halfway through and he said, Marty, we just need to tell the truth. So, another is telling the truth in our history. I love sitting in a place of discomfort. Because it's challenging me. And when I walk into a, an indigenous community, that trust needs to be built. I can't expect to have that trust. So that is my recommendation that we get into each other's worlds and not just these big events like a powwow or something. But getting into the communities and understanding what the needs are, that's harder said than done. Right. Lot of times don't have access to other communities. So communities, it's finding those kind of, the gatekeepers, right. Of people that will let you be part of their life and be part of their worlds. And that's what we've been able to do at the Maple River. Those gracious people that say, I'm interested, this will help my community. Yeah. And they allow you in to see those glimpses.

Pat 
Yeah. You know, in terms of reweaving, the cultural fabric of an area. In 2018, Minneapolis changed the name of Lake Calhoun, who was named after John Calhoun, who was very pro-slavery. Anyways, they changed it to Bde Maka Ska, it's original Dakota name, which means something like “White Earth Lake.” And so it seems that this is happening all over the country where people are reevaluating as we know the names of places, schools, monuments, everything is coming under consideration. Like, who are these people? Who are the people here before? And so that seems to be in the air.

Marty 
Yeah. That's powerful, isn't it? And drove through New York a few, two or three years ago, and  I drove into a watershed that had the native name. Right. It was right up there. And then it, and they get places. And that's one piece with the Maple River, because I mentioned earlier, we want people when they come to the Maple River, that it feels that this place is comfortable for them. And one of the ways is doing that is place names. And if you go for a walk in the woods and you don't know what trees you're looking at, that's a pretty sterile walk. It's, they're just trees. You need to make that connection. And coming into the Maple is knowing those names like manoomin and Wild Rice and Yep. Manoomin or Lake Sturgeon, these special attributes that you start connecting and doing your own research.

Marty 
Well, what does that mean? And then manoomin, you know, because one word can mean, I've learned how sentences and sentences, this depth of knowledge. So that's what we're hoping to do, is start changing the way that we look at naming and how we connect a place. Right. 'cause  I absolutely agree. I think that's a great example about changing names. It also honors our past, right? And it shows that we're, as a white settler that's my history. And it shows that we are making, trying to make those little changes that recognize the people that have been here, you know, from millennia. That's right. And understand this in the way that I don't

Pat 
You know, you said something earlier that your hope to make the Maple River, that when someone goes there, they feel like they belong there. Another flip side to that is, as a visual artist who has done public projects, one of the ground rules for doing public art, it has to look like it's always been there. And I've never forgotten that, that if I put anything in a public place, it has to feel like, oh, of course. It's always been there. And when you said that, it's like, yes, there has to be that feeling of organically belonging to the context.

Marty 
Yes. I love that. I actually, I had two quotes that I pulled out. We've done some oral histories, and I had one quote, and it fits perfect here because I, I asked one of our native partners what success looked like, and I think it fits perfect into this. And he says, the success will come when people won't remember the way it is right now. Just like we can't imagine what it was back then, what this place looked like 500 years ago. That's a deep concept, right? Because concept, we remember the contemporary, we remember the dam. And you're talking about something that just, it fits right organically. I love that. And that's what that I think success would be for this project. That it, it just fits it, it's Right.

Pat
 And in a way, what you're talking about, uh, in Restoring Rivers, it's about healing and the reconnection of the Maple River is really contributing to the overall health of all these different components. Will you speak more about that, that healing?

Marty 
Yeah, that is wonderful. And I think at the end of the day, that's one word you can capture, right? What we're aiming for here, because it's a healing of our interaction with the land, and those, the non-human components. And I break the world into human and non-human, you know? And that could be geology, it could be the lake Sturgeon, and then our human communities that are part of, right. And I also don't separate humans from the animal world. Yeah. We all belong in the same realm. And as we can ask that question again, I totally went off...

Pat
That's all right. It's just that it's really dramatic that there's a healing component to the work you're doing.

Marty
And so that's exactly right. And healing, looking at it, we have this history that is affecting people's lives in extreme ways today with the flooding, for instance. We have those little things that's healing and knowing that people care enough as a community, because if we open up this river, there's impacts to people upstream, it's gonna change the character of water not running through. They might have a canoe go by their house, they might not like that. Yeah. But it's making those choices to say, the person downstream is affected by this. I'm going to make the choice to allow this water to flow back through my property, change my landscape, right? And heal something downstream. And it's also, you're right, it is a community healing, knowing when you come together, and you may not all agree on what the outcome is, but you, you take the needs of the community and you try to look past being more altruistic.

Marty 
And look past those needs that you have. I also think the healing comes just in the way for the tribes. It's reciprocity, right? It, we have the opportunity to give back and to really account the past damage and the past pain that has been caused, never gonna fix. Right? That's the excitement of this project, is that healing that comes, and I can't compartmentalize it. It's not an ecological healing...It's not just a community healing. It's all these facets that are, that hopefully will find some type of healing through this process. And then what I do love is with, along with healing, is also this resiliency, right? Because in life we have to be resilient. We hurt, we we're happy, you know, all these emotions coming through, trying to keep this, this balance of resiliency, what we're doing by opening up this river and having it naturally function, you know, that river had forged itself over this 10,000 year ... history, right?

Marty 

In the Great Lakes into the sustainable way. Can we take this, this healing too, and being sustainable, right? And resilient. And that's my hope is that you have a, a river Now that's getting back to its natural form and function. I think we as, as people, you know, we have these natural ebbs and flows in ways we're supposed to form and function and, and form these ties to each other, right? And, and be built in caring for our environment. So at the end of the day, that's the piece which gets me most excited, is that healing component.

Pat 
You know, we've talked about the fish population and people, have you noticed a local wildlife change?

Marty 
Right now we're, we're right at that baseline. So we haven't actually allowed flow into the channel yet. We're right at that point where we're planning for it. We have the, you know, with the Clean Water Act and other important changes over the past, uh, you know, few decades, we are seeing, you know, like the ego that is starting to become more abundant, right? We're, we're seeing, we have the stand of wild rice from a Newman that's still there. So, we're doing all the research right now to document what we have, right? What is here in the current day. And, you know, I can't, but help imagine, you know, in 10 years after that river's opened up and you have it start to form that dynamic equilibrium, we are going to see just a, an amazing response within the, the world, you know, and, and the, yeah. The communities, natural communities there.

Pat 
I'd like to shift gears for a moment. Dam removal and river restoration are happening all over the world. Since these aging structures, these dams no longer serve their original purpose. A global movement is growing to let rivers flow freely again. In one case, dam removal in Finland allowed wild salmon to return after a century proving just how resilient nature can be when given that opportunity. So these efforts aren't just about ecology, they're about restoring, and as you're saying, entire ecosystems reducing flood risks and reviving local economies through recreation or tourism. So what do you think is driving this shift? And how does the Maple River project fit into this larger environmental trend?

Marty 
I could talk for about this...I think one piece you brought up is it's the public safety. Because these dams are failing, and we've seen catastrophes, right? When they have failed in Michigan and across the globe. I think another piece is also realizing, I'll bring up the Klamath River out west,

Pat 

The Klamath River is spelled K-L-A-M-A-T-H.

Marty 
They're opening up. And many of these communities on the Klamath, they were actually formed because the salmon would run up to these communities, the Klamath River, and it flows through multi-state in the northwest of the United States. And it actually goes up in, into Canada as well. And it's probably the largest dam removal. It is the largest dam removal in our country, and they're opening it up. 

And so for the first time, and you're right, like what you said, over a hundred years, these fish are coming back up and reconnecting to these communities that have been disconnected. You know, I look at it like our bodies, we have arteries, but the heart's the main mechanism, right? And these arteries are all cut off by the dam. So all of those connections up to the arteries, you know, have been severed. And I think a piece of, of this push right now, besides public safety, is behind these dams and upstream, there have been catastrophic damage done, you know, from the, the silting end of these impoundments.

Marty 
What were once beautiful lakes, right? And now they might be six inches deep, or the water coming out of the dams now are extremely warm and damaging the aquatic resources down below, all the way up to reconnecting these communities hundreds of miles up or river, that now have access to ocean fish. That's astounding, right? That these fish are coming all the way up. So, I think there's a push realizing what we've lost by those decisions that have been made, and in situations where it, it makes sense to remove those. Many times, it's a push by the local community that grassroots right. That organic to open it up. That's the excitement for me when I see that push from that local level. Yeah. And you're seeing it now.

Pat 
Also, many of these dam structures were built 50 to 70 years ago, and cities and states are facing, do we boost these and drop in millions of dollars to update them? And then another sidebar action is energy. We're seeing different alternatives to energy that you don't have to block up water for hydroelectric power. There are now other sources, and that seems to be having an impact as well.

Marty 
I agree. I think many of the dams, especially in Michigan, are actually losing money, right? So they're part of the energy portfolio, but they're losing money so they don't make that financial sense.  I do think that's important. And the trick of, I think with dam removals, it's all of these interconnected pieces now since we're used to it, you know, one is agriculture and being able to use some of that impounded water. They also property rights in Michigan. Many of our dams right now, they're home to many people, you know, living on these impoundments and they don't consider them impoundments. They're lake, right? They bought lake property. So you do have all of these really intricate and delicate issues to work through in dam removal that you're, that you're bringing up. But I think the power one's a good one. We're less reliant on that hydro power. So I think it does give us an opportunity to start considering these removals.

Pat 
Yeah. So Marty, I'd love to know, with your involvement in this project, what's hit you on a personal level, what personal lesson do you take away from this?

Marty 
I think one is patience, but I knew that before. I just think takes so long. The other is digging in really into that local knowledge of the area. I have learned so much. And that's restoration of the natural world. It's discovery, right? And what I've taken away is how much you learn from just being quiet and listening and going into people's houses and talking. And I did have a couple examples. I just wanted to share. One, we went into a gentleman's house and he said, I gotta show you something. And he had this beautiful wood mantle. And he said, but I hide this from my wife because I wanted to put it in the mantle. And I'm like, okay, well show me what it's, and he brings out this huge login that he had pulled out of the Maple River. So it's the end of a log that had been cut off.

Marty 
And the lumber companies would stamp the logs. They had this unique stamp so nobody could steal the log which was being floated down. He had this stamped logged in that we had dated back to 1880, because we could actually identify who the company was to stamp it. And it had floated through the Maple River. It showed us at that point in time, the Maple River probably was equal sized to the Muskegon. You know, this is one of those pieces of evidence you have to put together. And this person had revealed this to us, and it opened up everything. The other was, I was, um, floating down the, um, or in a boat on the Muskegon River. And I was with, Caroline, the professor from University of Wisconsin I was talking about. And we saw this wood structure on the bank. I floated over it a hundred times...

Marty 
Sure enough, that was the dam that was built 150 years ago that blocked the Maple River. People had told me about the structure. They didn't know what it was. All of a sudden it hit me. Right?  And because of putting together those pieces of what people have shared. So, to me, it is that power. What I learn every day, there is the power of just listening to people and expanding my knowledge by listening to their, all these major really enlightenments on the project. I was talking about western science and I love using that procedure and that reductionist procedure, but opening it up and being willing to look at, you know, other pieces of information that, that help. So, every day I'm reminded, open your mind. And, and listen,

Pat 
You know, it seems like we're making a sea change from that notion of taming the wild west, the American notion that we will go in, we will control, we will knock out this mountain. This whole notion of dominance and control of the environment as opposed to living in relationship to the environment and to nature. Do you think there, there's this changing going on?

Marty 
Yeah, there is. And you know, I used the word “un-fix,” and that's something that's becoming, popular now in river ecology and other disciplines as well. And it's this un-fixing and not making things predictable. And you're right, Manifest Destiny was more about, it was control. And having things that were predictable. And  I see you smiling because I think the world when it's not as predictable. And you allow a river to meander or you allow certain things to come back. I mean, that is the amazing piece. We don't need to fix it. We let it find its own equilibrium in some circumstances. And Yeah. I I love that.

Pat 
You know, from a psychological point of view, when people feel discomfort, they'll act out or react to things. And you talked about it earlier about how discomfort makes you grow. And I think what we're talking about when we have change, it creates discomfort. Well, it's always been that dam has been here for 50 years. I don't know why they wanna, you know, that kind of thing. Right. But discomfort, it holds a space for creativity for sure, but also for yielding possibilities. Discomfort yields possibilities. When we're comfortable. If I'm comfortable in my studio sitting in front of the, the little stove cup of coffee, I'm very content. But if I'm working on something and I'm up all-night thinking, no, no, no, that's not working out. Right. All that creativity and, and that focus starts to really gel into something magical that I never even dreamed of. And so, I love that you honor discomfort. We cannot say enough about discomfort,

Marty 
Yeah. And you're right. You, you bring up like staying up at night, right? And, you know, I brought up there's a hundred restoration scenarios, right? Yeah. That's the discomfort, right? Because if we keep the dam in, there's really one outcome, right? It stays the same. It's that discomfort. What is it gonna look like? What approach do we take? And I love this, it's this grounded theory where you started a problem and, and you start letting these pieces come in that emerge and it finds itself, right? And people say, well, why don't you get all worried about this? Because I know the process. It's going to find we're going to find a, a good solution to these problems. Right? Yeah. And it's just taking the time and, and having that discomfort and staying up at night, I guess. Right? <. And really weighing some of these questions. So I appreciate that.

Pat 
Well, as we're winding down, I wanna ask you, when people hear your name, what do you think they'll say? Like, oh, Marty Holtgren, “oh, he's the guy who...”

Marty 
I tell my kids I'm my epitaph.” He tried.” Okay. But I, I tried. Right? I think when that you see a problem, you see opportunity, right? And that you try to find the best solution. And you are per a person willing to throw yourself into something that people tell you can't be done. 

Marty 
Whether it's storing Lake Sturgeon or Artic Grayling, this Maple River. So many times I hear, well, it can't be done. And my first question is, why can't it be done? Right? 

Pat
Oh, I'm right with you!

Marty 

Maybe that's what I'd like is you tried to do the things that couldn't be done 

Pat
When someone says, you know, you can't do that, it's like waving a red flag and it's done. I will find a way to do whatever I'm told I can't do. And it seems like you suffer from the same malady?

Marty 

I think I suffer from the same malady.  And it keeps us going. It keeps you exciting. That's why I wake up in the morning, excited to do my work. Right. And you don't know where it's gonna go. You just know it's gonna be something good.

Pat 
Oh, Marty, I so enjoy listening to you. I could listen to you for another couple hours. This has been extraordinary. I love how you approach this sacred, important work. Thank you for sharing that with us today. That was awesome.

Marty 

Well, thank you. And I, I told you at the beginning that I also appreciate, you see those kindred spirits in life and somebody that brings all these different things in to your podcast and just the way you approach life. It was fun talking about art, talking about science, talking about different knowledge types and healing. So thank you for bringing those into the, the conversation. I get that. So I appreciate you.

Pat
Well, thank you Marty, and thank you listeners for joining us today. And if you enjoyed the podcast, please share the good word and tell your friends. Thank you. Bye.

Marty 
Thank you.